Phil Hope MP, Minister for the Third Sector answered your questions here on Tuesday 31 July. He covered several topics including volunteering, the potential of the voluntary and community sector to promote equality and the issues facing disabled people’s voluntary organisations today. You can read the transcript below.
Introduction by DRC Chief Executive Bob Niven:
A warm welcome to the Minister for the Third Sector Mr Phil Hope. It's great you can be here and thanks to all folks out there watching and listening. Talking about the third sector is very important and topical and I am sure the minster will have something to say about it. The discussion today will be about how to boost and ensure that effectiveness, particularly in the area of disability. You will find this is a matter of keen interest to the disability movement and disabled people. We have done a lot to assist people to have their voice and have set out in the disability agenda out ideas and propositions to boost the opportunities and rights of disabled people. So an important hour ahead.
Question 1 Submitted by: Brian Batson
We all know that the VCS is not only about delivering public services. What does the minister think the are the other valuable roles the VCS plays in society and how will these be strenghtened by Government action?
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
First just to thank you for giving me this opportunity today to talk to those people watching and listening to this discussion. Brian is right to say the third sector does have an important role to play in helping deliver public services but our report published last week put a particular emphasis on the crucial role for third sector organisations in being a voice and champion for people who use services and communities where they work and in particular groups who feel their needs may be overlooked or ignored by wider society. The report included additional funding opportunities for small community groups in particular and I hope that those local voluntary organisations that work for example with disabled people or are the voice of disabled people as well as black and minority ethnic groups or experiencing other forms of exclusion will find the £80 million grant programme of real value in helping with their work.
Comment by Bob Niven:
Thank you, Minister. That has set the scene very well. I suggest we go straight on to the second question and get more specific?
Comment by Phil Hope MP:
Fine
Question 2 Submitted by: Jane Young
What is the Government going to do about the funding problems that continually face organisations of disabled people, including centres for independent living? Currently our local organisation, which could be really instrumental in enabling disabled people to become involved in local initiatives, is heavily reliant on grant funding, which often means that they have to get rid of good members of staff after, say, 3 years, when the funding runs out. Although their direct payments support service is safe, as it runs the service on behalf of the Council, they find it very difficult to attract long term core funding. If they were to run other services on behalf of the Council, we would not be able to provide sufficient funding to cover core running costs, given the huge amounts of money we have to save over the next 3 years.
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Jane, I recognise the problem that you describe and we are working hard to find ways of solving it. The prime minister has made clear that he expects 3 year funding to become the norm for third sector organisations rather than the exception and this will apply to local authorities as well as central government departments. One of my roles in the Cabinet Office is to work closely with my ministerial colleagues in other government departments including the department for communities and local government to ensure thast this becomes a reality. There is a consultation happening at present by the DCLG on funding for third sector organisations and I would strongly encourage everyone to respond to that consultation to make clear the importance we place upon longer funding periods and on the idea of full cost recovery as being a part of the grants that third sector organisations receive. One final point, there is a document called the compact, which describes in general terms the relationship that we expect to see happen between third sector organisations and statutory bodies that describes not just funding relationships but also matters of consultation and involvement in policy making. I want to see that compact increasingly become the reality rather than a mere set of principles.
Comment by Bob Niven:
Thank you for that. I wonder, there are a lot of actors with roles to play here, especially public authorities that you have you mentioned, various authorities. What about voluntary bodies themselves internally, anything they might be thinking about to enhance their opportunities to capitalise on this newer situation?
Comment by Phil Hope MP:
Do you mean specifically with regard to disabled people?
Comment by Bob Niven:
Yes, and funding?
Comment by Phil Hope MP:
I think it is a real challenge for the Third Sector itself to make their case and use the levers we have made available to secure funding, for example,and to be engaged in decision making. With regard to disabled volunteers in particular, we have launched a new programme, two new programmes, one called GoldStar and the other called Volunteering for All. We are funding to promote within the Third Sector awareness of the barriers to volunteering by disabled volunteers and to look at the best practice so that Third Sector organisations themselves can change what they do. There is an excellent website that Third Sector organisations can visit to gain practical steps on processes for how to do it better. We are, as part of the Volunteering for All programme, we are training, for example, people in the Health Service about the benefits, for example,of having volunteers in the Health Service, and we fund Scope and Mencap as two organisations who are helping other Third Sector organisations to place disabled volunteers as part of what they do. We have got a long way to go on this but I think we are putting in place some real tangible action that will bring about change that will help disabled volunteers and therefore improve the quality of what has been
provided.
Question 3 Submitted by: Sandra
I have had a disability all my life, nearly 60 years. During my life I have done a lot of voluntary work as well as paid work. I welcome the Review of the Third Sector and I am interested that the voluntary and community sector is seen to have the potential to promote the Disability Equality Duty (DED). How will that potential be exploited? Many national charitable organisations receive grants from government funding schemes: Will these schemes be monitored to ensure that the DED is adhered to for whatever project is being undertaken?
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Sandra, thank you for your question. All organisations that employ people and provide services will be subject to the disability discrimination act measures and it will be a matter for the third sector organisations to ensure recruitment practices and the services they deliver conform to that legislation. I believe however there is a gap in our knowledge about the opportunities there are for disabled volunteers to play a part and indeed we have good anecdotal evidence of the value of third sector organisations but we don't really have the level of evidence of impact and value that would help everybody to support and sustain third sector orgaisantions in their work so one of the other annoucements last week was a new project to create a new £5 million evidence research facility on the value the sector bring to particular groups in terms of having an impact on their lives, so in addition to years of experience and evidence from projects and initiatives I want to see a much more comprehensive evidence base for the impact that third sector organisations have on improving people's lives, not least the lives of disabled people in local communities. A final point would be that there is a consulation happening as well at the moment on the new single equality bill which will be completed on 4th Septemeber and that is anothwer opporunity for everyone to give their views on what action might be taken in law to ensure disabled people experience equality in their lives.
Comment by Bob Niven:
I think that it is great. This evidence and research based system is being built up for all sorts of reasons, but for two particular reason perhaps: one, all public bodies have to have public schemes and when they come to renew those schemes in three years time, two years time now, they are going to have to show what they aim to do and the impact that has and how that plays back into how the public sector bodies will redo their equality schemes generally, including the Disability Scheme. Secondly, although not a lot of permanent secretaries seem to know this, there is something called the Secretary of State's duty. At the end of 2008, each Secretary of State, under legislation, has to publish a report of how their department and the things they are
responsible for have had an impact and how the scheme works out. I think this will be helpful in the sense of giving teeth to the duty in terms of, "You tried to do this: it did not work, it did work", and how that is ploughed back in the renewal scheme.
Comment by Phil Hope MP:
Good
Question 4 Submitted by: Jeff McWhinney
I have been the CEO of a national charity for almost a decade and have been working in the voluntary and not for profit sector for most of my career. The Government encourages volunteering however it actually disencourages volunteering for deaf and disabled people through lack of direct support for deaf and/or disabled volunteers and the organisations they are with - one classic example is that the Access to Work Scheme is not available for volunteers. Surely volunteering is a valid and credible step towards gaining employment (building up one's experience) and it baffles us why ATW is not supporting volunteers! Can you illustrate why this is so?
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Thank you Jeff for your question. I do agree and not just for disabled people but a lot of people, a route back to work can often be you begin as a service user, move to become a service vounteer and then go on to become a full time service provider or employee. We certainly have evidence of this happening and again part of the research we will be undertaking will be to investigate this further to establish the evidence for this, and in particular that it is a route that benefits particular groups including disabled people. However on access to work, this is a scheme aimed directly to get people or help people into jobs as distinct from volunteering and is not therefore fit for that purpose for providing increased opportunities for volunteering. Instead, we would want our funding schemes to include resources that help to pay extra expenses, for example, that disabled volunteers might require and we would strongly encourage third sector organisations who bid for grants locally or nationally to include extra items or extra budget lines for the additional costs of recruiting and deploying disabled volunteers.
Question 5 Submitted by: Kathryn Skillings
There are many benefits to disabled people volunteering including improving social cohesion and building self worth and independence. However, there continues to belots of conflicting and inaccurate information on volunteering affecting benefits given out by support services. This leads to less disabled people taking up volunteering. How could the Government ensure that accurate benefits information is given out in a strategic way?
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Kathryn, I share your view that volunteering really does have benefits in a whole range of ways. You are absolutely right to say that people who receive services from volunteers receive direct benefits and their lives are improved and that reflects the contributions the volunteers give. It is also true to say that volunteers themselves benefit from the opportunities they have in the way you describe. However we do need to do more to establish exactly what those benefits are and promote them to the third sector and local communities and to public services. The two programmes I have mentioned already - Goldstar and Volunteering for All - both aim to do just that. Within the Volunteering for All programme we have a disability forum which allows us to meet with disability organisations to hear first-hand the issues and barriers disabled people and disabled volunteers experience in order that we can take action to overcome those obstacles and to celebrate the benefits that volunteering by everyone can bring to everyone in the community. Finally, your question, Kathryn, re-enforces the importance of the research and evidence bases we are now putting into place.
Question 6 Submitted by: tara flood
we are delighted that there will now be funding available to support campaigning and capacity building work across the 3rd sector. can you tell me how the application process will work? will it be accessible to organisations led by disabled people (such as the Alliance) and will the funding criteria reflect the Govt's obligations under the public sector duty to promote disablility equality? Lastly how will you ensure that smaller 3rd sector organisations are not crowded out by the big overly bureaucratic charities ? Regards Tara Flood
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Tara, these are important questions and I will do my best to answer them.. We have deliberately established the small grants programme specifically for very small community-based and user-led groups. Our aim is to get money direct to the front line that will benefit those organisations who might feel they have lost out in the past. There is a separate stream of money for intermediary bodies through our capacity builders programme. So our intention is that the kind of project or group you refer to are not competing with other larger third sector bodies. We are currently considering the mechanism for doing this and I anticipate that the funding will be made available through local bodies with which small community groups will be able to identify and work with closely. I would want to see the application process made as straightforward and easy to access as possible. One final point is that I do want to see user-led groups supported to be advocates, to be champions, to speak up for themselves and others in the community. This, in my view, is what a healthy, thriving society is all about.
Question 7 Submitted by: Peter
Would you agree that using the 3rd sector to provide your services is the Government simply saving money and providing a much poorer service. The 3rd sector is not well resourced financially or with the right capacity to deliver the expectations of disabled people who depend on the services.
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Peter, I would strongly disagree with that view. The third sector is not a way of delivering services on the cheap and should never be viewed as such by the government, by local councils or indeed by the third sector itself. The essence of the value that the third sector brings is an ability to be connected to communities and to particular groups within local communities that are otherwise excluded, that public bodies and local authorities often find difficult to do. It is capturing through strong partnerships that ability of the third sector which will enhance and improve services for people, including disabled people. To be even more ambitious I would argue that the only way forward for a step change in the quality of life for many people will be when we create new ways of working at a local level between public, private and third sector bodies that directly address the needs and aspirations of people in the community. I regret it when I hear of examples when my aspirations are not the way it is on the ground. The compact commissioner, John Stoker, has a critical role to play in monitoring the performance of public bodies in abiding by the principles and practice of the compact as one mechanism for preventing the kinds of problems that you envisage might be the case.
Question 8 Submitted by: Julie-Jaye Charles
Hello Phil How will you and the DRC ensure the mainstreaming and support of bme disabled people organisations as we move towards the opening of the Commission for Equality and Human Rights (CEHR). And what has been done to intregate Race, Disability and Human Rights of BME Disabled people, in particularly due to Multiple Discrimination and Discriminatory Practices.
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Julie-Jaye, You are right to emphasise the importance of mainstreaming the issues, the funding, and the changes that are needed to ensure that excluded groups - and I would add those people who don't have qualifications as well as a third priority to that list - that their needs are met. I believe that the new organisation will give a strong boost to the process of integrating and mainstreaming action to tackle multiple barriers that different individuals have to overcome. This is a challenge for third sector organisations as much as anyone else. I strongly believe that those who represent users with muliple barriers to overcome have a vital role to play in helping to bring forward practical solutions as well as challenging attitudes among mainstream service providers. I will ask Bob to respond to the specific question about the future role of the DRC and it will appear here with the full transcript tomorrow.
Comment by Bob Niven:
Hi Julie. I will not eat into the Minister's time but the issues you raised are exactly those that we will discuss at the meeting of the DRC's BME Advisory Group Meeting in a fortnight and also at the conference which your organisation, Equalities, and the DRC will be holding in September with the presence of Cherie Booth.
Question 9 Submitted by: Michael Dawkins
Over formalising volunteering puts up different barriers for people, in particular for disabled groups/people that already find it difficult to volunteer as they are more disadvantaged and marginalised within society How could the Government empower organisations to think more about informal volunteering
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Michael, this is an excellent point to make and I am keen to see us promote volunteering in all its forms, ranging from good-neighbourliness on the one hand, right through to formal regular volunteering on the other. I might add to that spectrum opportunities for social enterprise as well in which people may run businesses that have social purpose and ethical values. We want to see high levels of participation in all these forms of volunteering as part of a thriving, cohesive, civil society. We have asked, for example, Julia Neuberger to undertake a review of how we might encourage more volunteering of all kinds in the public services, beginning with the health service. For example, how could a former cancer patient offer insight and advice in an informal, friendly way to a current cancer patient as they experience their treatment. This is all about people helping each other out in flexible, irregular but also vital ways as well as the more formalised processes of providing a service to a regular pattern. The real skill will be for government to be able to encourage this without feeling in any way the government is trying to make it happen in a forced way.
Question 10 Submitted by: Kate Engles
The government is placing an emphasis on getting benefits claimants with disabilities/ long-term mental health issues back into work via volunteering. Will volunteering be promoted as an option for those who are employed but on long-term sick leave?
Answer by Phil Hope MP:
Kate, this is a question that has not been put to me before and I am intrigued by the possibility. There are probably issues around claiming benefits and employment law that I would need to examine further. But there is no question that people who are on long term sick leave would benefit from maintaining contact with theor employer in a variety of ways and the possibility of carrying out some form of unpaid contribution might be valuable in some cases. I can see disadvantages but I think it is an idea that is worth exploring. FINALLY... Thank you, Bob, for this opportunity. The time has gone really quickly and I hope I have done justice to the many questions that have been put. I agree that the third sector has a crucial role to play in being a voice for people who are otherwise disenfranchised and in particular for disabled people at every level. It is also a sector that provides key services to disabled people. So it is crucial that over the coming months we pay serious attention to how we can respond directly to the issues and concerns that people have and make real progress on this agenda.
Closing comments by Bob Niven:
Thank you very much for so much of your time and your very comprehensive answers in which you have answered two or three questions together: we are very grateful. As you can tell from the questions we took, and I feel the long list of questions we are not able to take, the Voluntary and Community Sector, the Third Sector, is of key importance and interest to disabled people both in terms of what the sector can provide
and do by way of support and help for disabled people but also disabled people getting involved. Therefore it is a very very helpful discussion and very much appreciated. There is still some way to go but we are very grateful for your time. Thank you.